OPPOlitics: America 2016 or 1816?

"Groagun" (groagun) 02/12/2016 at 14:04 • Filed to: None

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Most of us have been in some form or another, paying attention to the race for the White House in 2016. It seems the numbers who have watched debates, tuned into political TV and radio, registered to vote and actually voted in the first two primaries have shown the appetite for politics in America may be the strongest in generations.

And no, Trump is not the catalyst or primary reason I’m asking these questions. I’ll get to him a bit later.

It was a quote, first used in September of 2001 by then President Bush. It was subsequently made into a tag line and speaking point for the reason, not just for the attacks in NY, DC and PA but then to justify wars in Iraq and elsewhere.

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“They” refers to al qaeda or Muslim extremists of the day. And they hate us because we enjoy freedoms that we have earned in blood. Yes, we have earned them in blood but they do not hate us because we are free!

They hate us because they are not free and we are the ones keeping them from their freedom. They hate us because they are not free, not because we are.

It’s a very distinct difference but a nuanced argument that has been totally missed by many of the 2016 Presidential candidates.

These two idiots in particular. Both, a few months a go repeated the quote verbatim and I swear both on the same day. I understand that it’s the primary and you need to appeal to your base but what the hell is in and makes up that base?

I would have thought by now that America would have learned that waiving it’s fists, threatening and actually attacking other countries is not the best first move.

It extends to today’s fight with ISIS. ISIS is the next logical extreme move to the Muslim Fundamentalist movement. al qaeda, quaint in a deadly kind of way, didn’t get the results that the fundamentalist movement wanted or expected. The next move is simply getting more extreme, or as we call it today, ISIS!

Cruz is a snake oil salesman! He doesn’t wan to be President, he never wanted to be or though he could. He’s happy being a Senator from Texas, an outspoken ‘far’ right winger that upholds the light and principals of the far right wing.

He’s amassed a large enough and loyal following to keep the money flowing each month that he now enjoys a comfortable living off of his ‘supporters’ and never really has to do anything else for the rest of his life. He remains a Senator until he’s old and grey because he occupies a spot to the right of everyone else and the cheques ‘keep on a rollin in’.

Rubio on the other hand, I really hate this guy. I think he’s noting but a pretty mouth piece. I’m no fan of Governor Christie but he was spot on about Rubio.

Besides spouting out the same BS as everyone else on ‘the quote’, he has said some unbelievably disrespectful and flat out wrong things when it comes to President Obama. I respect the as a conservative, with a small c, that you differ in philosophy and approach to the country but his attack on the man’s character and his job as a father is disgusting and he should have apologized and been ashamed.

He did neither and it disqualifies him from the running as far as I’m concerned. Marco’s other problem, he is running to fufill the ajenda as set out by his donors and simply says what he needs to, to please them.

Some of these donors and potential donors are dangerous people. I don’t mean dangerous as in you have to worry that Sheldon Adelson will get up out of his wheel chair and crack you one with his cane. No, his(their) views of the world and how it should be lead and how the arsenal at the Presidents’ disposal should be used is what is so alarming.

To put just a little bit of perspective on this argument about today’s candidates, it’s useful to remember who they learned from and how much of this is the ‘reward’ for past deeds and relationships.

That’s Papa Bush, W(dubiya) and Bandar bin Saltan(aka Bandar Bush). We all know the follies of W, and while I’m usually not one to kick a man when he’s down, the praise being heaped upon Pres Bush 41 should bare some more scrutiny. I wont go into it here but it would be well worth your time to know what the powers that be are doing and have done with the company they keep.

You didn’t think I would let that one get by me did you?

And now for the one, the only, the real King of Queens, your Mexican and Muslim hating and quaff sporting Republican front runner, Donald J Trump!

Make America Great Again! WTF does that mean? It almost feels like part of his argument is that America needs to return to the status that America held in the 1950's. When it was only kept in check by a similarly nuclear equipped Russia.

Bigger, badder and bolder than anyone else. That is what America was. Is it still that? I think it is. America hasn’t lost anything to anyone, it truly is the purveyor of it’s own destiny and plight.

The difference is that everyone else has just advanced and America has retarded it’s growth, by it’s own hand over the last 30-40 years.

I find it disturbing and somewhat amusing that America is taking a long and serious look at a guy who exemplifies the very nature and construct that lead to the independence from England and the birth of America itself.

Trump is not a freedom loving constitutionalist, he’s a dictator and that is what, it seems in part, many of his supporters want. How is it that America is turning into England of 1816?

We’ve heard over and over how illegal and just plain anti-American President Obama has been with his executive orders. Now you want Trump, who openly says that he is that kind of guy and that is what he will do and that is what America needs. I don’t get you guys at times.

I will enjoy watching the race over the next few months and I hope you vote more with your brains than your angry fists.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:16

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As a moderate American, I am always astounded at the far right’s ability to convince lower class citizens that to prosper they need to sign away more of their rights and give money to the already rich. Also that their lower class status is not from a lack of education (education being bad) or from hatred and bigotry, but because of “immigrants” and “attacks on christmas” and, essentially, minorities. Because all that welfare stealing by black people is why you don’t have a good job and not because you’re a barely functional alcoholic.....

And then there’s the amorphous blob of “good ideas” called the democratic party. Just ONE democrat with a spine would do us a lot of good. Sadly it feels like if you gathered up every one and surgically fused together their collective backbones you only get half a spine. Also 3/4 of a heart. Like, enough for a pulse, but not really enough to run a brain. Enough to open up a wallet though (OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH)

-This hot take brought to you by boredom and diet coke

For Sweden > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:16

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Are you running for the Democratic presidential nomination? Because there’s nothing that party loves more than foreigners telling them America is horrible.

djmt1 > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:18

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Well in all fairness, things were pretty good in 1816. Unemployment down, living standards up, world peace since everybody was pissed off at Britian and trains were now a thing and trains are great!

For Sweden > djmt1 02/12/2016 at 14:25

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Trains are neat! But I worry that a vote for James Monroe, a vote to continue the Virginia Dynasty, is a vote against trains.

MUSASHI66 > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:25

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Republicans - as usual - are shooting themselves in the foot with their candidate selection. Democrats are giving us an option of Hilary or nobody - there is no way they will ever nominate Bernie, and it is amazing that he did as much as he did so far. I foresee Hilary winning it, and I hate the fact that I can’t move :D

I am a guy right in the middle - not loyal to a party or a cause or a person. I just want a normal candidate, not blinded by left or right, and unfortunately, that candidate will never be presented to us or elected by us because of the billions spent on advertising left or right wing ones.

Steve in Manhattan > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:25

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I will break it down for you: since the late 50s and early 60s the GOP has combined the votes of the rich with the votes of sociopaths, bigots, and idiots to win elections. Now they are surprised! when the sociopaths, bigots, and idiots have taken over the Republican party. This explains Trump, the Tea Party, and the other Luddites who run red states. Read this: http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2008/11/dolt-s…

It explains a lot.

PatBateman > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:27

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Is there a reason why you completely ignored the Democrat and the Socialist running for president? Or focusing on a guy that hasn’t been president for seven years and ignoring the guy that’s been there since?

I’m all for civil political debates, but be earnest with your position.

In the Republican primaries, I prefer Rubio because he’s considerably more moderate than Trump (a billionaire with a IDGAF attitude and zero political experience) and Cruz (Tea Party darling). With that said, the Primaries are meant to secure the vote from the more conservative voters of the R party, so candidates are further out there with what they say. After the primaries, they take a step back towards the middle. And vice versa with the Democrats.

But when the chips are down in November, I'd rather have Rubio or Clinton win rather than a real, honest-to-God Democratic Socialist (sorry, HondaBro). If anyone would like to live in a Socialist country, go move to Europe and be taxed at 56% for anything over $7,400 in wages.

vondon302 > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:35

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We have no idea what we’re doing.

Leadbull > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:40

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PATRICK GEORGE FOR PRESIDENT

If you can run a website, you can run a country!

Hot Takes Salesman > For Sweden 02/12/2016 at 14:43

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Hillary, you mean

Hot Takes Salesman > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:44

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Donaldolf Trumpler

spanfucker retire bitch > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/12/2016 at 14:46

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The sheer ability of the Republican party to get the majority of their base to vote against their own interests - again and again and again - decade after decade is just astounding.

Psychologists could do a study on that for 20 years or more and still not even scratch the surface of the sheer deluded level of devotion to the apparent self-hatred they exhibit.

For Sweden > Leadbull 02/12/2016 at 14:47

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But he was just the Prime Minister of Canada...

For Sweden > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 14:48

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But making households take out debt to pay for things is better than the government taking on that debt, right?

Please send krona.

Chariotoflove > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:49

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I wish that political posts and stories would stop using the most unattractive pics of the candidates they can find, especially that stupid one of Trump with his finger in the air. It’s clearly intended to make them all look goofy, which sets a derogatory tone for a piece. It’s the visual analog to the attack “soundbite” that the writers decry in the politicians on which they report.

JR1 > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 14:53

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Trump is appealing to the masses whoa re frustrated with the lack of direction in Washington and “politicians who are puppets of their massive political donors” (thank you Citizen United). The argument is an attractive one, “elect me! I will less to the people and not be beholden to donors.” He also brings up the great scare tactics of China and illegal immigrants. Both of which are issues that need to be taken care of and frankly D.C doesn’t seem to be doing much in the eyes of the public.

Furthermore when you have people like Hillary Clinton running who are about as trustworthy as a hungry lion in a cage that promises not to eat you, the nations respect for politicians has diminished drastically. They are all seen as liars and the public might be open to someone like Trump who is ultimately not a politicians.

Rubio is moderate but Chris did bring up the excellent point that he is way too scripted.

Cruz is ok. But I think he is too far right to win. He too often appeals to the evangelical voters (which I never understood because we are supposed to be a secular nation.)

If you as me the real winner out of the primaries is John Kasich. He has both experience in D.C and has turned around the economy in Ohio.

Do not get me started on my hatred for Bernie that could last for several days.

and 100 more > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 15:10

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What are “we” doing?

We’re sitting here watching, disenfranchised, with about as much say as you have in our gov’t, as the whole thing turns into a carnival.

“We” have very little to do with this. What you’re witnessing, what we are all being forced to witness, is the latest act in a play about the American political landscape. And just like a stage production, we can be moved by the performances, we can come to love or hate the characters, but in the end, we are all just watching this weird spectacle unfold.

“We” just have front-row seats.

This particular election cycle happens to be more like WWE Monday Night Raw than politics.

Bytemite > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 15:13

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You keep saying socialist like it’s a bad thing. You realize capitalism only works by growing right? We are stretching the limits of what the natural world can handle, and an economic system that relies on more consumption each and every quarter to stay afloat is not a viable solution for the future. Each time there is a recession, we “bounce back” by increasing the disparity between the rich and the middle class. Look at the history of recessions, particularly the most recent one. Middle class income has stayed low, the wealthy have bounced back. So we can either keep heading in this direction of recession, growth, recession, and so on until there is such a great disparity that a revolution occurs...and history repeats itself, OR we can dig some heads out of the sand and look for solutions to the real problem. The real problem being the core, our economic system. And I know what you’re going to say; we can keep incentives with a “socialist” system. Read up on what democratic socialism is. It isn’t bad like you think it is. And it would be hell of a lot better than this cycle of bullshit we are currently on.

Chasaboo > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 15:15

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I love how just now, the rest of the world is finally figuring out that Americans are freaking insane.

RallyWrench > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 15:18

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Please don’t think we’re all foaming at the mouth and incapable of critical thinking, as our political parties would seem to indicate.

PatBateman > For Sweden 02/12/2016 at 15:30

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WOW. That’s a lot of debt they got there.

yamahog > djmt1 02/12/2016 at 15:32

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“Well in all fairness, things were pretty good in 1816"

You might be a white man if....

GhostZ > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 15:47

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The president has actually very little power on domestic policy, Polls and early caucuses always favor extreme candidates, money and lobbying affects people’s voting more than what a candidate’s platform is. That’s what’s going on. The Republican and Democratic party leadership are just as pissed as everyone else right now

The presidental race costs $1,000,000,000+. We’re only $150,000,000 into it so far.

PatBateman > Bytemite 02/12/2016 at 15:52

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America has never been, nor is it now, a Socialist country. And I say “Socialist” as a matter of fact, not as a matter of contempt; plenty of much smaller countries have used it successfully. If you’d like to live in a Socialist country, move to one. I’m not saying this as a slight, or a “love it or leave it” diatribe, but as a real, sincere suggestion. If I lived in Montana and wanted warmer weather, I wouldn’t sit there trying to figure out how to warm where I was; I’d move someplace with a warmer climate.

I have read up on what a Democratic Socialist is: they want a Socialist country without the coup. They still want a government-run economy and high taxes for EVERYONE (not just those evil millionaires), but without the bloodshed. Are you okay with being taxed next year at over 50% on your income? I’m not, and most (read as: a majority) of America isn’t.

Again, if you'd be more happy living in a Socialist country, apply to move there. No hard feelings (seriously).

spooljunkiev2 > Bytemite 02/12/2016 at 15:58

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To be honest, I had to up democratic socialism. I get the overall thought process. In theory if there were no greed in the world maybe. But I fear that in reality this does not work. If everyone had ownership, you would have people taking advantage of the system somehow. Just like there is today. Only everyone would be paying the price for that.

You say the capitalism only works by growing. I disagree wholeheartedly. In a capitalist society you are compensated for creating VALUE to someone else. If the service you provide is more valuable to more people, you should be compensated more for that. This in turn creates competition which drives progress. The term “value” does not mean “more”. This could mean power saving devices. Life saving procedures. Anything that someone else finds value in.

How do you propose we fix this? Just simply steal from the “rich”? Then who determines that? And at what amount? And then when is it enough? If you ask me (which I know you didn’t), I’m pretty sure that the people who have enough money will just leave. Because they are rich enough to do so. That is always what happens. You tax the hell out of companies, and they no longer keep their money here. You have to create an environment that makes it profitable to be here. Ultimately that is why we all work, or start a business, or invent, or anything. It is to create a life for ourselves.

Personally I am not jealous of the ones that have made it. I aspire to “make it” myself. And I know that with hard work, like most (of course not all) of the “rich” have, I may get there too. I also know that I am not willing to do as much work to get there as someone else. So I know I’ll never be as rich as someone like a doctor, because I am not willing to put myself though that much schooling. They are and they deserve it. Realism; pass it on.

Bytemite > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 16:00

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Well I like America, and if something is damaged, you fix it not move on to something new. That’s not even mentioning how hard it is to just uproot your entire life and move to a different country...

Having Bernie as a Pres wouldn’t make America a socialist country though. It would still be the same democratic republic government with lower taxes for the middle class and higher taxes for the corporations and uber wealthy. I’m not sure why you think the majority of Americans earn 250k+ a year...because if you read up on his proposals that is where he starts his raise in marginal taxes to 50+%. Let’s look at the real numbers and facts stated and not exaggerate things to the nth degree. We, and let me speak for most of oppo here, certainly do not earn anywhere close to 250k/year, probably not even 100k. And I find it concerning you think that income figure accounts for the majority of Americans. Did you ask if Im okay being taxed at 50% because you think most people earn that much money...or you think Bernie’s raise in taxes will tax the middle class at 50%? Neither are true, he proposes a reduction in taxes for 99% of wage earners in America. These are actual figures here. Let’s talk logically and rationally.

PatBateman > Bytemite 02/12/2016 at 16:18

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You understand that, in many Socialist countries that work, the middle class is taxed at over 50%, right? In Denmark, for example, citizens making over about $60k/year are taxed at the top, which is about 56%. Make a bit less than that? It’s about 41%. In Sweden, you’ll be paying 31% taxes up to around $60k; make more, and it’s 51%.

If he wants Socialism (which he does), upping the tax bracket on the wealthy a mere 10% ain’t gonna cover the expenses.

Also, keep in mind that in a Socialist country, the economy is run by the government. Socialism can work well in small countries, but in a place with this many people...

However, in reality, Bernie Sanders as president would only create more government gridlock than ever before.The good news: it would force Rs and Ds to work together, because neither would want much of what Sanders is selling.

SVTyler > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 16:27

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If anyone would like to live in a Socialist country, go move to Europe and be taxed at 56% for anything over $7,400 in wages.

Don’t forget enjoying a much higher standard of living including social safety nets for the poor or unemployed, an education system far exceeding that of the US’s, free* post-secondary education with a monthly government stipend to cover additional expenses, working conditions (including government-mandated maternity/paternity leave and time off as well as <1% people working more than 50hrs per week), and a socialized healthcare system that doesn’t cause ~70% of all bankruptcies yet still functions better than most privatized systems in other countries. You pay more but you end up getting more as well.

I get that that’s an extremely simplistic and idealistic explanation of European and Scandinavian countries’ social systems and there’s no way all of that can be implemented here in the US, but as a college-age person staring at the prospect of paying into Social Security that we’ll never see, a rapidly disappearing middle class we can only hope to be part of, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and the prospect of be exploited and overworked in a job in the event we can actually find one, the rich only getting richer off the rest of us, and a system dealing a deck stacked against us from the very start, you can see why people are buying into Bernie’s ideas. I’m not 100% sold on the dude at all but in a lot of people’s opinions he’s the lesser of the evils at this point: Hillary’s a two-faced corporate shill, Cruz is the definition of a Jesus freak, Rubio doesn’t believe in global warming or gay marriage but tbh is half-decent otherwise, and Trump’s a narcissistic megalomaniac.

PatBateman > SVTyler 02/12/2016 at 16:45

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Like I said, Socialism works in some smaller countries like Sweden, Denmark, and the like. Those populations are considerably smaller than ours, thus is why it is easier to control and manage. There are downsides in those countries as well: high household debt, large amounts of pensioners (in 2012, this equated to over 1/3rd of Denmark’s population), and the risk of accruing crippling fiscal responsibilities (there were a few other factors that went into their situation, but think about Greece).

I say all of this as a realist, not as a RAH RAH CAPITALISM cheerleader. There are pros and cons for everything.

Also, the deck isn’t stacked against you post-college. I say this as a guy who, with a degree and experience, had to take a job that had a GED prerequisite out of college. It doesn't matter where you start, as long as you can map out where you want to end up.

Bytemite > spooljunkiev2 02/12/2016 at 17:21

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It just so happens a lot of the things we find value in are physical goods. And these goods place physical stress on the environment. And the unregulated competition drives more growth of these stresses, leading to the situation we have today, like the killing of rainforests to continue to feed livestock, contaminating rivers and drinking water supplies to dye leather, producing non-degradable plastics and dumping them in the pacific ocean, unsustainable levels greenhouse emissions, etc. When our economic model is based on profits at all costs, businesses will choose to grow in whatever way necessary. Externalizing any cost they can pass on, whether that be to the environment, to the safety of the workers, to anything else that can be cut to improve the earnings for next quarter. I said it before and I’ll say it again, democratic socialism isn’t about killing competition and incentives. Those two things will still be intact. And the people who work hard will be rewarded, but we’ve all had enough of the rich evading their fair share of taxes.

Good for you to have that American optimism of upward socio-economic mobility. This is something Bernie is fighting to keep. We all want to “make it” and hope to become wealthy “one day”, the truth is that dream is disappearing when our policies cater to the same people who buy elections, lobby for special interests, and spend money to create an environment that makes it harder for the ones who made it already to lose money, and makes it harder for the ones who haven’t made it to earn money.

Bytemite > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 17:43

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$60k a year in Denmark isn’t equivalent to $60k a year in America. 60k a year here is middle class, 60k a year there is quite a bit better off. Guess who pays a lot less when they have to send their kids to school or have their parents get sick? That American 60k income family goes bankrupt, the family in Denmark is fine.

Looking at the median wealth per adult vs the mean. You have the middle class at a smaller $44,911 vs Denmark’s middle class of $57,675 per adult. Then you look at the mean, which is highly skewed by the massive wealth of the .01%, and you see the US mean wealth per adult is higher than Denmark’s. Also note, even with Denmark’s oh so socialist policies, they have just as many uber wealthy people.

So really, we might make a lot more money in the country than Denmark, but their middle class is getting the benefits of a much healthier portion of that GDP.

So if I’m going to get taxed more for any money I make above $100k, so be it. If that means I get taxed less for the money I make below $60k, that is only good for the middle class. You take money from the person who earns $30k-60k, you are taking away their ability to pay bills, buy a house, raise a family. You take money from the person who earns $100k, you are slowing the growth of their 401k accounts, IRA accounts, investment accounts. It is clear which is the more important dollar to keep.

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SilverPantherIsSilver > Leadbull 02/12/2016 at 17:51

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Salvage title Camaros for all!

Groagun > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 18:12

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I despise Rubio, I would encourage you to rethink your choice but I would never tell you or even think to tell you who to vote for. I think there are better choices on the Republican side, Kasich is the best in my opinion.

I ignored the Democratic side because truthfully, it’s all policy debate and not as entertaining. The real arguemnt on that side is about America realizing its’ already a semi socialist country and coming to terms with it.

That will be a post for another day, I hope you read it.

PatBateman > Bytemite 02/12/2016 at 19:14

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You’ve made a fantastic case for moving to Europe. What’s keeping you?

Honestly, you just spouted a bunch of numbers but you really didn’t say anything (no snark, I do numbers for a living). What you did show, however, was that Denmark does in fact tax the middle class at the top tax bracket. And you’re right about one thing: $60k here and $60k in Denmark isn’t the same thing. Living in Denmark is more expensive than in the US, so the money that you do keep won’t buy you as much.

PatBateman > Groagun 02/12/2016 at 19:31

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Civil political discussions are nice. :)

The US Government provides basic safety nets and services for their citizens, as pretty much all functional governments do. Basic services does not (semi) Socialism make.

And for the record, I think the Ds have plenty of drama going on in their ranks as well.

Bytemite > PatBateman 02/12/2016 at 19:31

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Okay, I see you just stopped listening. So we’ll make assumptions and I will just go ahead and assume you are a middle aged or older white male in the finance industry that clearly wants to protect his prized assets and will therefore associate himself with the party that has Trump as a frontrunner. That says enough really. You are out of touch with whats going on outside your sphere of wealthy communities. We will just see who wins the presidential election and if Bernie does win, you can go move somewhere else. After all, uprooting is so simple to you that you would suggest it as a viable option to anyone that has a problem with the stagnant middle class of our country.

PatBateman > Bytemite 02/12/2016 at 20:20

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I AM a middle class white male in the finance industry!! Holy HELL that was amaze-balls!!!

What you failed to see with your sweeping stereotype is that I’ve also been on multiple nonprofit boards, been a volunteer firefighter, donated my time to plenty of other great organizations, and don’t have a prerequisite for my friends’ tax brackets. What you ALSO failed to see is that you actually never really proved your point with all of the math and statistics you threw out. I’m not trying to be a dick about that, but I went over it five times and all I got out of it was what I told you.

If Bernie gets elected, I won’t move. Rather, I’ll simply be annoyed by the new government gridlock and rise of an equally radical sector on the right.

So cheers, and good luck with your impending work visa requests.

wafflesnfalafel > For Sweden 02/12/2016 at 23:09

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dang - everybody in Scandinavia is in hock up to their eyeballs?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > spanfucker retire bitch 02/12/2016 at 23:34

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hate motivates.

Tapas > Groagun 02/13/2016 at 03:11

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Its not us making these assholes powerful/popular, its the silent majority of old people who vote and buy the bullshit they sell.

More younger people gotta vote. Or else, someone will be making america “great” again.

Groagun > Tapas 02/13/2016 at 13:00

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You’re absolutely right and I hope more ‘young’ people participate.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Groagun 02/13/2016 at 13:54

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because moderates don’t get backing. what we’re seeing is the result of 2 parties loosing control of the fire they have been stoking for years. The republican party more than democrats. Cruz hits the southern, evangelical tea party base, trump the closet racists who now have someone saying the shit they think out load, (in their head) giving legitimacy to their ideas. Most people think trump is a joke. but he has sense gained a fervent following. trump promises to take care of complex social/polical/economic problems and just win and make america great. he is successful because he doesn’t make voters make difficult moral/ethical decisions just promise to “win”

replace McCarthy with trump and it fits fairly well.

“the immigrant paradox: too lazy to work, but they’re stealing our jobs.”

spooljunkiev2 > Bytemite 02/15/2016 at 09:26

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How exactly will having the government owning the businesses not kill competition and incentives? The problem with this logic is now you are putting the future and winners in the governments hands. Personally I would prefer to make those decisions myself. I don’t need my decisions made for me. Look at what happens when the gov makes decisions on what products and who they back? You get things like CFL light bulbs. Literally a hazardous material backed by the gov that now HAS to live in my home with my kids? Especially when LED is a WAY better alternative? Honestly you get just as much corruption in government as you do in the private sector. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that if we just put everything into government it will all me good. You do that and you may not be able to change it back...

In another post I saw you put a bunch of numbers out there for income at 60k. That is great an all but the two countries are not mutually exclusive. Our standard of living is way higher than any European country. Yes we don’t have as many gov paid for incentives. But to me you aren’t supposed to. You are supposed to do what you can to take care of yourself. You are in dyre straits? Of course, help out. But you do NOT deserve cable tv, you do NOT deserve 99 weeks of unemployment, you do not deserve a cell phone. People take advantage of things when they are there. I truly believe if we had better checks in place for accounting for where all of this money goes, everyone would be better off. I live in MN, an audit for our MNSure (the healthcare exchange) concluded they haven’t been doing any checks on people to see if they are even eligible for the discounts. Which in turn literally gave away millions of dollars. This is completely unacceptable and leaves a bad taste of government.... The last thing I want to do if give them more power.

I apologize for my rant and completely unorganized thoughts here. Early morning without my coffee...

Bytemite > spooljunkiev2 02/15/2016 at 14:23

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In defining what democratic socialism means to him, Sanders said: “I don’t believe government should take over the grocery store down the street or own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a decent standard of living and that their incomes should go up, not down. I do believe in private companies that thrive and invest and grow in America, companies that create jobs here, rather than companies that are shutting down in America and increasing their profits by exploiting low-wage labor abroad.”

You might have read about what democratic socialism is, but you’re not understanding what it is Bernie is trying to do. A socialist economy is not what he’s advocating for. The most central issue he is taking on is money controlling politics instead of popular opinion. If anything, he is the biggest harbinger of actual democracy in this presidential race.

The real issue isn’t big bad gubment getting bigger. I know Republicans like to throw that point out to scare people and make people think the government is wasting their tax money. While they are the ones who choose to spend half the entire country’s budget on warfare and weaponry...

Bernie is against the rich controlling politics and having laws tailored to suit them at the expense of the middle-class. And as long as the rich control our government, competition and incentives die along with the opportunities for new players to “make it”. What do you think the rich corporations are doing with their billions of dollars of lobbying? They are creating a market of monopolies and oligopolies that make it impossible for new competition with innovative ideas and products to compete with them. So if you are still on the issues of “government is too big”, and “I don’t want gubment controlling my life!”, the Republicans have got you exactly where they want you. They will keep throwing out scapegoats and some will stick. Avoiding the real issues behind the scenes where you see they are puppets to big money, they are allowing big money to control legislation and your fate. So if you are truly against government controlling your life, don’t shoot yourself in the foot by voting for any of these Republican candidates or Hillary because they are all in the back pockets of Wall Street.

spooljunkiev2 > Bytemite 02/16/2016 at 09:37

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Fully agree on Hillary’s candidacy. Never liked her for a second. One of the most two faced, say anything to get what she wants people I’ve ever seen.

In your quote of Bernie he states that the middle class should wage should go up and not down. And he believes in the companies that invest here. Both things that I too believe in. Where we differ though is how this can be accomplished. Companies don’t just move for no reason. They don’t just go abroad for cheap labor. The reason many companies do this is to get away from the government red tape and policy. Take Apple and Microsoft for example. Billions in straight-cash-homie off somewhere other than America. Why? Because if they bring it back here, it will be taxed at ludicrous levels.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/…

Now I’m not saying that Bernie wouldn’t be able to fix that, or that he even wants to because I don’t know. But to me right now central “gubment” takes in a ton of money, and already doesn’t spend properly. My earlier point of choosing winners like CFL light bulbs still stands. The market should choose winners and losers in business, not government. There isn’t one single success in government business programs. They are all hemorrhaging money. Go down the list, Social Security, USPS, Municipal Liquor stores and golf courses(granted that is local), ObamaCare. All doing horrifyingly bad. Now one can argue Social Security is doomed because they keep borrowing against it, but that is still a way of running it so I believe it applies.

I will say that I believe his words and convictions. This guy has been broke his whole life for the most part. Odd thing is about him though is he hasn’t had a real job except a government paycheck. But I know he truly believes what he preaches which is more than I can say for most of the other candidate on both sides of the isle. The problem is I don’t believe more ownership of my life and income is the way it should be.